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Are Calvinists by necessity Universalists?
I've been thinking about this lately and talking about it to some of my friends. Some of my Calvinist friends.
So, if people whom God wants to saved are saved, and people whom God wants to perish, well perish then all will be saved:
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
Also if we look at the Bible literally then we all fell because of Adam, and we are all saved because of Christ.
For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Cor 15:22
Does a Calvinist hermeneutic necessarily lead to universalism?
So, if people whom God wants to saved are saved, and people whom God wants to perish, well perish then all will be saved:
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
Also if we look at the Bible literally then we all fell because of Adam, and we are all saved because of Christ.
For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Cor 15:22
Does a Calvinist hermeneutic necessarily lead to universalism?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Taliesin on -
but according to Calvinists they have no real choice, it's like someone addicted to drugs being in a room full of drugs (no other room exists) and "having a choice"
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Permalink Reply by Cassondra on -
Even if Calvinists were right, and the only people who could be saved were people God chose to save, my aforementioned statement would still be true.
God is omniscient and omnipotent, right? So one could argue (not saying I believe this, but one could argue.. not saying this is wrong, either) that God foreknew who would choose Him, so He chose them so they could choose Him. Romans 8:29 says those He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Thus, it still is all about the individual person's choice. AND God's choice.
We agree that only Holy Spirit can...save a person, right? What I mean by this is...all our evangelizing is nothing if someone's heart is not prompted and convicted by Holy Spirit. WE don't save someone. God does.
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ. ~1 Corinthians 2:10-16
If we can only be saved if we have knowledge to choose God coming from Holy Spirit, how is that different than Calvinism? In other words, if we can only choose God because Holy Spirit reveals God to us... in some way, Calvinism is right, and God chooses us and then we choose Him.
Now, God could and likely did give EVERYONE a measure of Holy Spirit, and some still rejected Him.... I guess that would be more Arminian.
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Permalink Reply by Taliesin on
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Yes, that last part is what I believe, and it lines up with the Bible more.
But here's the deal, if that is true, if Calvinism is true as you just described it. What is the point, meaning, and hope for the people who God foreknew would reject Him and so doesn't offer the Spirit to give them ears to hear and eyes to see. Why do they exist? And what does this say about an actual divide among those who are elect and those who are not. Does this make them somehow less human? Alot of people say that anything done for God and His Glory is the only good. So what does that say about a non-elect person who can do no good, and never will.
In essence it creates a huge spiritual divide, an aristocracy if you will, in humanity, and actually destroys the very concept of love one another. In truth, these would be people with no worth, no meaning, other than that of showing God's wrath to His Elect that they might know Him better and glorify Him, and certainly these would be people with no hope who's only right act in life would be suicide.
I cannot believe in such a world. I believe in hope for everyone, as such I cannot believe in Calvinism.
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Permalink Reply by Cassondra on
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What you say is true, about the non-elect being, well, worthless and sad. Pitiable even. Why do they exist? I've often pondered that. But then, why do they exist anyway, even if Calvinism is not true? It's not like God doesn't already know they won't choose Him, even if the opportunity is there for them to do so. He is omniscient and eternal, so He knew that Hitler would not choose Him...so why did He create Hitler? Why create people He knows are going to die eternally anyway? I don't know, but who says you can't unintentionally glorify God. Meaning even if you're not saved, you can glorify Him somehow. Maybe that's why they exist. Maybe not. Who can know the mind of God? But...I can trust Him anyway.
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Permalink Reply by Taliesin on
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I guess I'm just not as okay with letting it be a mystery, or whatever. I do trust God, and that's why I can't really see how a world where elect and non elect (salvifically speaking) can exist, because I know God's heart for mankind, and Him allowing such a thing just doesn't make sense to me. So something doesn't line up and that's why I believe, or have come to believe, as I do about The Relationship, spirit soul stuff, prevenient grace, time and God's part in (out) of it, original sin, what a human is and so much more. Suddenly the world's alot different, but it still lines up with The Word as I interpret it.
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Permalink Reply by Zoe on -
KC – that’s what I’ve heard as well, although I couldn’t say that from my own limited experience with the PCA, which is what most Calvinist I know are (Presbyterian Church of America). But then, I grew up in a denomination that has been focused on evangelism since its inception. In fact, our founder was a Presbyterian minister back East somewhere, and he left the church because his congregation was so apathetic about the lost and needy in their community and abroad.
Cassondra: Even if Calvinists were right, and the only people who could be saved were people God chose to save, my aforementioned statement would still be true.
If Person A took a gun and shot Peron B, whose fault is that and who should be punished? According to Calvinism, it’s the gun’s fault.
God is omniscient and omnipotent, right? So one could argue (not saying I believe this, but one could argue.. not saying this is wrong, either) that God foreknew who would choose Him, so He chose them so they could choose Him. Romans 8:29 says those He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Thus, it still is all about the individual person's choice. AND God's choice.
That is pretty close to what I believe (although that verse specifically is talking about sanctification, not salvation). That is just not the Calvinist position; it’s closer to the Arminian position actually that God chose those whom he foreknew in advance would choose him. The Calvinist position is that God chose some people in advance for salvation, and it is only by his choice that anybody can become saved. The people who aren’t saved, would have been saved if God had chosen them, because his grace is irresistible and he doesn’t choose based on anything about those particular people.
Cassondra: We agree that only Holy Spirit can...save a person, right? What I mean by this is...all our evangelizing is nothing if someone's heart is not prompted and convicted by Holy Spirit. WE don't save someone. God does.
Absolutely.
Cassondra: If we can only be saved if we have knowledge to choose God coming from Holy Spirit, how is that different than Calvinism? In other words, if we can only choose God because Holy Spirit reveals God to us... in some way, Calvinism is right, and God chooses us and then we choose Him.
The difference is that the Bible says (in Romans 1 and 2) that every person has knowledge of God and of the Law through nature and their own conscience, and Calvinism claims that God only gives knowledge of himself to the people he has pre-selected for salvation. I believe that God pursues every human being and gives everybody the opportunity to be saved; Calvinism teaches that God only pursues the elect and gives them the opportunity, which they cannot refuse, to be saved.
Cassondra: Now, God could and likely did give EVERYONE a measure of Holy Spirit, and some still rejected Him.... I guess that would be more Arminian.
Yes, that is the stance of most non-Calvinist doctrines.
Justin: In essence it creates a huge spiritual divide, an aristocracy if you will, in humanity
Since Calvin was raised in an aristocracy, that would make sense.
Cassondra: What you say is true, about the non-elect being, well, worthless and sad. Pitiable even. Why do they exist? I've often pondered that. But then, why do they exist anyway, even if Calvinism is not true?
Because God loves them and wanted them to exist. Our lives and our souls matter because God made us that way, and the lives and souls of the people who reject God still matter enough to him that he is willing to let them exist. Maybe people's worth isn't measured by the outcome of their lives (pragmatism); maybe we're valuable no matter what. (This is actually the best argument against the annihilation theory that I’ve ever heard.) Do you love anybody who is not a Christian? Would you still love them if you knew that they would never come to Christ? How much greater is that with God?
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Permalink Reply by Taliesin on
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I guess I just don't get why God couldn't have chosen everyone and now grace is opt out. I mean enough of our lives are filled with knowledge and choice of God or not that no man can go through life without accepting what is already there, or rejecting it. That way God doesn't even have to use foreknowledge, and/or it is true the whole Lewisan understanding of God and time, which kinda makes foreknowledge moot. Call it now-knowledge or something. That way the value of existence still exists, while the hope of more can exist as well.
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Permalink Reply by Deb on -
It seems that it is not ok for God to do what He wants.
I am just not sure which Bible you read sometimes Justin.
Here is just a few verses. There is a Bible full yet I ain't going to quote the whole book. :).
"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus." 2 Thess 1:8
"With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 1:11-12
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess 2:13-14
"He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:47
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:35-40
As to 'irresistible grace' what if it is just responding to the One you belong to because when He calls you hear and believe. The sheep know the voice of The Shepherd.
What if the same is said for those who supress the truth and follow the father of lies, the voice they know.
Can God still be God? Will you turn away because He hasn't chosen everyone? Yet He desires that none should perish. Maybe.
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Permalink Reply by Spy Hunter on -
Tyranny is just a word. It is the cruelty behind it which makes it evil. Just because you say something is tyrannical does not mean it really is. There are certain heinous requirements.
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Permalink Reply by Deb on
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I only have to read the story of Job to make me wonder what kind of God has desired my salvation.
What kind of God allows a man to lose everything at the hands of satan and then gives him a double blessing when the test is over?
It sure does bother me yet I have to humbly accept that God is God and that God has a plan to end the tyranny of satan.
That God has set His Seal on His Son, and whoever believe in Him, and apparently knows who they are going to be.
"God is mighty, but does not despise men;
he is mighty, and firm in his purpose.
He does not keep the wicked alive
but gives the afflicted their rights.
He does not take his eyes off the righteous;
he enthrones them with kings
and exalts them forever.
But if men are bound in chains
held fast by cords of affliction,
he tells them what they have done -
that they have sinned arrogantly.
He makes them listen to correction
and commands them to repent of their evil.
If they obey and serve him,
they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity
and their years in contentment.
But if they do not listen,
they will perish by the sword
and die without knowledge. Job 36: 2-12
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