All right, you bloodthirsty savages...

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Permalink Reply by Loxen on November 5, 2009 at 11:41am

Just a thought, and I don’t know how legitimate this is, but it would seem that a lot depends upon a persons relationship to the specific “incident”. Last weekend we heard the story about this rapist who was living in a home with several rotting corpses. Now I can look at that more objectively than, say, the parents of one of those “rotting corpses”. It is easy for me to say, “Okay, they caught the guy. It is horrible what he did, and probably needs to be institutionalized for the remainder of his life, with extensive psychological help”. But if I was one of the parents…

If, for example, someone kidnapped one of my grandsons, sexually molested them, then murdered them, I would want to skin the perp alive, and immerse them in a vat of boiling acid. And even that wouldn’t be good enough to satisfy me.

Now, you can make all the judgments about me that you want, but the fact is, in that case I am way to close to the victim to be objective towards the criminal. At that point, I’m not thinking of this dudes eternal destiny. God would have to inject me with a phenomenal amount of love, compassion, and forgiveness to approach this situation rationally. And maybe He would if it ever happened (which I pray it never does). But just sitting here thinking about it…, the rage is beginning to simmer.

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Permalink Reply by RETS on November 5, 2009 at 11:59am

And granted.

However, these are people who have no relation, no connection at all, to the incident. Being involved is one thing. A blood thirst without an involvement is completely different.

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Permalink Reply by Lindis on November 5, 2009 at 1:07pm

Loxen said:
"And even that wouldn’t be good enough to satisfy me."

That's really a good statement, and I think the key of your whole example. It wouldn't be enough to satisfy you because -nothing- of that nature could ever bring satisfaction. Bitterness, hate, and revenge have this horrible problem of never resolving themselves.

Whether or not you are personally involved.

It is a deception, as with any other sin. It promises satisfaction, but never pays it... always leaving us unresolved and depressed.


P.S. I have a doctorate's degree in Sin, and am an expert in the field... just so ya' know where I'm coming from on this. ;-P

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Permalink Reply by Taliesin on November 5, 2009 at 1:33pm

Well said again Lindis,

And RETS I think I understand better where you're coming from....

For me I am not even sure putting to death is right, and I know there have been many a thread on the death penalty where I threw out my belief and it was very strongly disagreed with, hehe...so I'm not here to argue that point, it's been around the bend enough already.

What I am here to say is a story...

We were discussing one night in Acts in small group, and we had just recently gone over the story of the stoning of Stephen....well, in this story we were reading that night Barnabas is shown as one of the very few who supports Paul to the disciples as one of their own. We talked about how it was very likely that Barnabas was friends with Stephen, and maybe even best friends, and that Paul's involvement with Stephen's death should have given Barnabas every reason to -not- support him after he converted. In fact I wonder that Barnabas didn't even seek any legal retribution, which I am sure Paul in humility and desire to do right would have gone along with, but he didn't seek it. He supported Paul -as if it had never happened-

That's the key phrase, as if it had never happened.

That blew me away, so much so that I've relegated the grace that Barnabas showed Paul to a whole level all it's own, and I think Loxen that is what you mean when you say you'd need a phenomenal amount of love.

I would that we all had the grace of Barnabas.

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Permalink Reply by Skip Lively on November 5, 2009 at 1:47pm

If by 'enough' someone is looking for an equal amount of pain and suffering, they will never achieve it short of becoming a bloodthirsty savage themselves.

And loxen's post shows us exactly why those wronged should not be the ones meting out punishment. It is neither healthy nor just.

In the original example, nothing on earth can ever restore those boys or right the wrong that was done. As it can not be done, I believe our primary goal in the criminal justice system should be that individual from committing the same crime ever again, and to punish sufficiently that there is some hope of deterring others from doing the same.

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Permalink Reply by Deb on November 5, 2009 at 1:47pm

This is Saudi Arabia - living sacrifice pointed out the cultural thing, yet I don't think these people know Jesus, so they will deal with justice outside the boundaries of God.

If they understood and knew Jesus I am certain they would let God's justice prevail with the perpetrator and as Justin says, the relatives of the children would allow amazing grace to comfort their sorrow and look forward to the new creation. They could even preach the gospel before they cut his head off - maybe?

Be grand to live in such an idealic world hey, yet we don't.

I believe even if you can kill the criminal, those little boys have to live on with memories of their own torture at the hands of this worker of satan, again it seems to me the victims suffer the most and the victimizer is dead.

Do these little boys grasp that their torturer is going to face Jesus - is their anyone in Saudi who can tell these little boys about the Lion of Judah?

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Permalink Reply by Loxen on November 5, 2009 at 2:01pm

Two things just to clarity my post.

First, I’m not saying my response that I described was a proper, Godly, or a justifiable response. I just know how I would feel if I was that close to the situation.

Second, this was just one side of the issue; a thought that just traveled through my brain as I was reading. Nothing definitive about it.

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Permalink Reply by KC on November 5, 2009 at 6:11pm

Loxen said: Now, you can make all the judgments about me that you want, but the fact is, in that case I am way to close to the victim to be objective towards the criminal. At that point, I’m not thinking of this dudes eternal destiny. God would have to inject me with a phenomenal amount of love, compassion, and forgiveness to approach this situation rationally. And maybe He would if it ever happened (which I pray it never does). But just sitting here thinking about it…, the rage is beginning to simmer.

I have to say I'm in the same boat as you.

I think there should be specific punishments for specific crimes. It seems in America, one person can murder someone and get off in 7 years, whereas another murderer has to stay in jail for life or get the death penalty. To me, one count of murder is enough to pay with one's life.

As far as other crimes, I just don't know.

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Permalink Reply by Hammie_Lammie on November 5, 2009 at 9:59pm

The punishment for him was more than about justice. It was more about letting people to express their emotions and feelings and thoughts- anger, frustration, fear, insecurity, oppression, etc. It is not enough because what's been done to that criminal isn't enough to remove their anger, clear their frustration, give them security, free them from the oppression of evil, etc. When one does not have the faith in God strong enough to know that the Lord will judge righteously and justly and He is able to recompense the victims regardless dead or alive, he/she is most likely let vengeance and hate take over.

The cruel treatment of the offender is also a way to frighten potential offenders.

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Permalink Reply by Rocko on November 5, 2009 at 10:12pm

Hmm... you know, I too was not sure I was going to participate. But, some of this hits very close to home, especially with most of you using rapists, pedophiles, and molesters as examples.

You know, and this will probably be surprising to most of you, I recently had to face my bitterness and hurt that had simmered for almost 13 years because of what happened to me when I was 4 or 5. I had to ask myself all the same questions you are asking. "Is it enough?" "Should I leave it in God's hands, for His wrath is greater than my own?" I, for SO long, had either thought of suicide, or thought of ways to seek revenge on this woman. But, I had to let it go. As much as these people deserve their fate, deserve the wrath of God and their victims, we absolutely can NOT live with unforgiveness, no matter how sick these people were/are. I definitely can't say I agree with displaying a criminal's beheaded body, but I know from personal experience that we have to forgive these people and leave it to God's Judgement, for the sake of our own sanity and for the ones around us. We still have to serve justice here on earth, according to the law in place.

And as far as Stoning goes, I've been stoned, I've had big rocks thrown at me by large crowds of children... it's slow, painful, and not pleasant in the least. Obviously, it wasn't, I guess you could say, "execution style"... it was just a bunch of kids in my school singling me out when I was little.

Really, it's very befitting for a criminal (stoning), especially if it's done by the victim's family and friends. I think that may be why it was used in ancient times.

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Permalink Reply by Lindis on November 5, 2009 at 11:42pm

Loxen said:

Two things just to clarity my post.

First, I’m not saying my response that I described was a proper, Godly, or a justifiable response. I just know how I would feel if I was that close to the situation.

Second, this was just one side of the issue; a thought that just traveled through my brain as I was reading. Nothing definitive about it.

I understood that Loxen, and was just replying to the idea, and the sentiment... I've heard people truly express that same sentiment, and I believe that I understand the feeling, however, it -is- just an illusion, a deception... so I wanted to state that in reply to the idea. :)

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Permalink Reply by Deb on November 6, 2009 at 2:48am

I still have no answer for your questions Rets yet one thing has struck me very deeply reading this thread, and that is the difference between a culture with a god who thrives on raw power and our God who suffered in a way that we could never come close to even beginning to say we could relate. I bow my knee to Our Lord, Our Saviour, Our King, Our God.

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