The Circle/A Ted Dekker Community
The official online community of New York Times best-selling author Ted Dekker.
All right, you bloodthirsty savages...
...Just when is it brutal enough, or fitting enough?
Title is my personal take on some of the responses I've seen.
So there's this guy who was recently convicted of some pretty horrendous murders in Saudi Arabia. He was convicted of these particular crimes, which I'll not name, and sentenced to die by crucifixion.
He'll be crucified, beheaded, and displayed in public.
Now, granted that his crimes were all against boys between 3 and 7, so I can understand the anger. However...
When someone cries "It's not enough," well... What is enough? When has suffering reached an acceptable epoch for criminals like this?
Title is my personal take on some of the responses I've seen.
So there's this guy who was recently convicted of some pretty horrendous murders in Saudi Arabia. He was convicted of these particular crimes, which I'll not name, and sentenced to die by crucifixion.
He'll be crucified, beheaded, and displayed in public.
Now, granted that his crimes were all against boys between 3 and 7, so I can understand the anger. However...
When someone cries "It's not enough," well... What is enough? When has suffering reached an acceptable epoch for criminals like this?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Cassondra on -
I don't know that it's my place to judgepeople's suffering. I do know that God has promised them a lovely lake of burning sulfur to reside in for all eternity unless they repent. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8
I used to think of that sort of thing as good and it did feed my vengeful side. I was happy to think of people like Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Ladin, Timothy McVeigh, and all pedophiles, murderers, etc. in Hell.
But then I realized that it's not just them that are going to Hell. Meaning that people who do good all their lives, strive their hardest to be a good person, and don't believe in God are going to be with these people in the lake of burning sulfur.
That provokes 2, ironically opposite, responses in me: 1) Shouldn't the Bin Ladins, pedophiles, etc. of the world get worse than those who are simply unbelievers? It's not fair! 2) What happened to the Bin Ladins, pedophiles, etc. of the world that caused them to do such evil? Is there not room for compassion for them? Do they really deserve to go to live in a burning lake of sulfur without the comforting, loving, Presence of God that makes life worth living for all eternity? It's not fair!
But our God gave each and every one of them the chance to go to Heaven when none of us deserve anything but a lake of burning sulfur. Our God is merciful, but He is also just. And to be any less, He would have to be less than God. Meaning He cannot lower His standards and still be God.
I do know that Satan should get much worse than just a lake of burning sulfur to reside in for all eternity. And I choose to believe God is just and He will give Satan all that he deserves. And I'm ok with feeling that lust for vengeance against Satan.
What I don't think it's my place to do is feel a lust for vengeance against people. Even the evil ones. All I have to do is trust God. That He is just. And what will be done will be right.
I realize I am talking about eternity and your original post seemed to indicate talking about this side of eternity, but all suffering this side of eternity is...not eternal. Meaning it ceases. That guy can't suffer anymore after he's dead, unless his soul suffers. His body may be displayed in public, but he won't be around to care.
-
Permalink Reply by living sacrifice on -
First of all, just to be clear he was beheaded first and then his body was displayed in what they call crucifixion style. Here's what I found on this particular story:
http://theoriginalgreenwichdiva.com/2009/11/04/saudi-arabia-convict...
And then we have a similar story from cnn:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/30/saudi.arabia.execution/in...
It may surprise some of you to know, that I've seen the bodies of executed rapists and murderers here in Thailand (talking about whole bodies that had been mummified after execution, or heads with bullet wounds preserved in bottles at a forensic museum). This is justice for this culture, and if it scares someone enough to think twice about rape or murder, then I don't see a problem with it. We have to understand that was is gruesome and disturbing in one culture is normal every day stuff for another.
-
Permalink Reply by RETS on -
Still not sure how either of you actually answered or addressed the question... But then again I'm pretty tired. I'll head to bed and see if it makes sense in the morning.
Thanks, girls.
-
Permalink Reply by Loxen on -
It is a tough question to answer, because my mind is fighting between justice and revenge. I've always felt that the punishment should at least equal the crime, so I suppose "enough" is when the criminal has suffered as much as his victims suffered, and that might be impossible in many situations.
-
Permalink Reply by living sacrifice on
-
Justice is mostly cultural. Different cultures have different ideas about what is just. I think that's why the New Testament didn't give us specifics but rather said that the government was there to administer justice.
Of course there also is a bottom line, if you will, that is a human standard of right and wrong and justice. We may not agree on exactly how crimes should be punished, but most of us agree that certain things are always crimes. One culture may give the rapist three strikes. Another might literally torture him to death. Both may look at each other and feel like an injustice has been done, but in the end every nation and culture will reap what it sows and this is the greater law coming into play. If the culture allows injustice to happen, then surprisingly injustice will happen.
-
Permalink Reply by Spy Hunter on -
Whether his body decomposes six feet under the dirt, six feet in the air on a stake, or displayed in ash form in an urn or even port-a-pottie, I don't see that it makes any difference to him. I don't think the issue is so much about justice as it is about the interment of the dead.
-
Permalink Reply by TC_2 on -
Everything I can see within the Biblical texts as to punishment for criminal behavior of a capitol offense within the Judeaic system -- has stoning as the method of execution. I don't think there really is a suffering "amount" required of the person found guilty.
Putting into context the heart attitude towards criminal behavior... we must keep this scripture in mind..
Rom 12:19 Do not take revenge, dear fiends, but leave room for God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me. I will pay them back, declares the Lord."
I think looking to cause 'suffering' may be getting close to the revenge factor.. although I certainly understand the desire.
...but leave room for God's wrath. Makes me kinda shudder -- to think of God's wrath... Who would want to fall into the hands of a JUST and Righteous ALL consuming God?
-
Permalink Reply by Blaze19D on -
i have to be honest here, i have no sympathy for the guy. the method of his execution doesnt really bother me, but then again, ive seen some pretty messed up stuff myself. now i understand G-d said vengeance is His, but what is the line between vengeance and justice, especially these days?
-
Permalink Reply by Lindis on -
Well, listed in the proper order, it's really not so bad. Getting beheaded seems nicer than being crucified.
Anyways... this issue reminds me of The Patriot, when Mel Gibson's character is talking about what they did to the indians.
But as to what is too far? Torturing someone to death, or before death, is too far. I at least understand torturing someone to give you information (even though I don't agree with it), but torturing someone just to cause them pain before they die? Too far. No government (and especially no single person) has the right to inflict pain simply for the sake of inflicting pain. Yes, kill the murderer, or rapist, if that's what the law says... that's enough.
-
Permalink Reply by Taliesin on -
hm, I wasn't gonna touch this discussion with a ten foot pole, but I think Lindis has given the best answer so far. Though we still disagree on one key point, but I am sure everyone knows my stance on that.
-
Permalink Reply by RETS on
-
TC_2 said:...but leave room for God's wrath. Makes me kinda shudder -- to think of God's wrath... Who would want to fall into the hands of a JUST and Righteous ALL consuming God?
That is actually my point, to be honest. We know God is the ultimate judge, and that His judgments, while just, are terrible-- So, that being said and known; Why are we lusting after another's suffering? What is the point?
Does anyone here realize we bring judgment onto our own heads that way?!
Blaze, I hope I didn't leave any ideas that I have sympathy for the guy-- It is the most recent illustration for a problem that I see affecting everyone, not just unsaved individuals. This mindset of "that's not bad enough," or "that's not brutal enough" has permeated the church as well.
Justin, as I said to Blaze just now, the discussion is not really about the illustration, but the attitude that I saw expressed; an attitude that has no place within a follower of Christ, and really makes no sense regardless of who you are.
If you still feel as though you can't participate, I understand. I just wanted to clarify.
About
© 2009 Created by Admin (KSK) on Ning. Create Your Own Social Network
